Racing on twitch with Beyond Chaos

@Tenka: I agree with Catone in that I would play a rule variation even if it seems like something I would hate, within reason (if it's not something asinine like a 24-hour BC race, or every time your character dies you have to physically hurt yourself, etc.). I can't tell you what to do of course, but I feel it's most interesting when more people participate. I don't feel all variations need to be of codes or flags either, we can think outside the box here. Honestly I'm starting to get attached to the idea of "standard first race, themed final" (or potentially the other way around), so that we can get a mix of pure gameplay and more gimmicky stuff. I also don't think I'd want to do a race every week, personally I think I'd be most down for a race every two weeks or so, since some have to happen during the week (although three hour races instead of four hour might help with that).

@Catone: I agree with Tenka that the Coliseum is a special case, because unlike in other cases I see virtually no scenario where the risk vs. reward is worth it. He's not being inconsistent here, and I think that it's worth it to try and get the standard format right here. I also want to mention one thing that I've learned from talking to Tenka is that although his statements are already pretty forceful and self-assured, I feel like sometimes he comes across even more forcefully than he intends. I'm not sure whether that's just the way he talks or whether his English phrasing is causing his sentences to appear more blunt, but it's generally something I keep in mind.

@Jackimus: I'm so into this I say we begin *during* the Blue Jays game! Fite me!

@Abyssonym: You're awesome!

@Tenka

Yeah, as i said in the previous post at the really end i'll participate even if you'll use that rule... the only scenario in which i'd refuse to race no matter what is the case in which you want to race a "vanillafied" BC race.
Anyway one tournament each 2 weeks would already be awesome compared to one each month.

I'm not sure whether that's just the way he talks or whether his English phrasing is causing his sentences to appear more blunt, but it's generally something I keep in mind

Exactly, i'm pretty sure many people hates that aspect of me, which is often considered as "i won't be agree no matter what", i consider myself more like a D&D character which requires a pretty good score in diplomacy against my CD to being convinced, which means discussing for a long time until we clarify all the details/doubts(unless the argument has really no need of a long discussion)
And yes, there are very high chances that they look more blunt than what i actually wanted
Anyway thanks, Lockirby2... i really apreciate that you keep it in mind

Let me just be clear, I'm not mad, pissed, or insulted. As I said it was/is completely pointless to continue that conversation. I never said viewing the coliseum data was bad, I did imply that allowing free access to the information on every race, period, is not completely harmless. It basically turns it into a swap shop, not exactly, but yes basically it does.

It also removes part of the gamble, with that list, every racer knows and has access to the same gear as the other racers. Without that knowledge, Player 1 could choose to hunt for a great item, while Player 2 runs for the finish line ignoring the gamble entirely. Is there a 100% that player 1 will find something game changing? No, but a chance yes. So lets say Player 1 stopped and played the coliseum, and got lucky. They are behind because of that time spent but have the better gear. Player 2 without spending the time, is way ahead, then gets raped by a boss, while player 1 walks through it because they were the one with the elemental protection, all because they took the chance while player 2 didn't.

With the information, all players know they can get an elemental protection easily, so everybody does it. Later down the road, everybody walks over the next boss because everybody has that extra gear, no change of who's in the lead. That gamble just turned into a free pass for everyone.

Am I saying "never! Such information will doom the world!"? Not by a long shot, but why is it so difficult to see how one piece of info, takes away just as much as any other piece of info that could be obtained? Sure, allow it every now and then, but a as a set- every run rule? It is not harmless. Even more so when you talk racing among several players.

And yes, I do support "stepping outside of your comfort zone" for the occasional race. It would keep things interesting. Frankly, the only thing that really needs to be set and constant would be a way of determining a winner at a set time limit, someway that allows for a set time limit but still takes into account who was really winning.

Regardless of what/where/why, I'm gonna actually get my ass out of this conversation for real this time. And again, I'm not holding a grudge here, I'm just not gonna continue to attempt to discuss it.

Fair enough... just allow me to answer one last time about that(just read, there's no need to reply) that's my last attempt to convince you about that, if it doesn't work it's ok...

1) Among all 255 combination 5-6 prizes are elemental shields, if you're lucky;
2) There's the chance that one of the 3 elem shields won't even appear;
3) There's really nothing else which might be worth to be hunted without any clue;
4) There's really no way to determinate which item you should bet to win them,
not even an elem. shield;
5) There might be 2 items which awards you with the same elem. shield, but
reading the guide looks like one fight is against a LV 28(feasible in the final
part of the race) and the other fight is against a LV 43(starting from this lv i
consider impossible to win the fight in a colisseum in a race of 4 hours)
6) if you find the bad fight i'm pretty sure the player won't search for further
combinations, he'll try further(1 fail = 1 reset) without even know that he'll
never win or just quit the colosseum and wasted a lot of time;
7) considered all what i wrote above there's a max of 2 combinations for each
elem. shield: 1 is good, the other one is a trap inside the trap, so if you're
searching for a copy of a shield you don't own in particular, then there's 1/255
chances that you'll be so lucky to find it and being also the winnable fight...
(you have more chances of dropping Goo King Sword from Goo King in BoF3
without using Charm, at the first try than finding and winning the searched
shield at the first, second, third, ... , 54th time)
8) you'll waste a lot of time betting/winning/losing and also have to reset unless
you wanna lose half of your inventory, if you wanna keep some other item as
well you have to save many times and it costs a lot of money unless it's a 500
GP shop, in that case you'll have to backtrack from part 3 to part 1 of the
whole dungeon to be able to win an elem. shield;
9) Sure you won't bet lowest/best stuff if you search for a shield, but if for some
reason you'll include also the item to bet in the top item range, you'll never
find the shield.


In other words, unless you're blessed from lady luck, you'll never win that shield and not get the last position(i'm not even saying winning) at the same time... without a colisseum guide.

And the odds of getting stuff in colisseum won't be the same for everybody(elem.
shields in particular) that depends on:
1) which equip you found in the race until that moment(to win the fight);
2) if you have found the item to bet untll that moment(1 among all the items);
3) most important: which characters you put in the party that will find the
colosseum, there are characters that just can't win or even fight in colosseum
(Suicide/worthless commands) and possibly there's just one/two char that have
what it takes to stand that fight... if you make the wrong choice at the start of
the race you'll never get that shield unless you quit the cave and change party
formations(that means resetting all switches actived in Kefka Tower until that
moment if i'm not wrong, and restart the whole dungeon from 0... probably a
suicide)


That means that not even with colosseum guide the random factor is completely
killed, your choices during the race will heavily affect the outcome of hard battles in the colosseum.


________________________________________________
________________________________________________


I hope you'll keep in consideration the explaination above.

Anyway Abyss is going to release the next update with only colosseum guide, so let's do this one: we'll do this tournament with colosseum guide as standard rule, then we'll race and i ask to everybody, especially watchers, to examine how we'll use the colosseum guide(i'm pretty sure everybody will try to get some elem. shield) and whether we'll be able to win any shield or not, according to what choices we made during the race:
From this tournament we should gather enough data to be able to ponderate if colosseum guide is harmless or not and so confirm it as standard rule or toss it among optional rules... i hope after that we'll be able to reach a point of agreement.


PS. how should we use colosseum guide? 30 minutes before the race or during the race?

Don't forget, after the 3-switch room, you can choose which party goes down the center path. That party has access to 10 out of 12 shops, one of which is probably the colosseum. So you have an opportunity to direct the best party to the colosseum (ideally they would have a Moogle Charm user too but that's only if you're lucky enough to find one).

Yes! I have seen the light oh great, all-knowing one. Your logic is undeniable, resistance to your superior foresight is futile! I must have been blinded by such intelligence that I was unable to see the truth, a level of greatness and knowledge that a fool such as myself could never hope to comprehend on anything but the most basic levels. You have shown me the error of my moronic ways, I should be punished for presenting such stupidity in the presences of such wisdom. Punish me oh great master of all, for being so incompetent and please allow me to humbly beg your forgiveness for ever doubting your authority.

Now, if you'll excuse me, I have another wall to beat my head against.
Have a nice day.

@Abyssonym: you're right! that make it less random...

@Catone: NOW you're really pissed off...
I'm sorry you react in this way, the best i can do for you about that is stopping here this discussion...
All what i can say is let's race/watch everybody and see what happens


The last thing left to define is how we should do the stages?

1) Narshe race + Speedcave race, 4 hours for the shops;
2) Speedcave Switch room race + Speedcave race, 4 hours for the shops.

Hell, I thought it was kinda funny myself, at least a slight bit humorous.

Come on, I even threw in a couple of slight nerdiological referances!

So you say it was a joke? Still better than knowing you're angry with me...
Just keep in mind that i can easily misunderstand those kind of answers


Anyway... what's the matter, guys? if no one answers how will we be ready to plan the next race? i'll repost the 2 questions left before being ready, i guess...

how we should do the stages?

1) Narshe race + Speedcave race, 4 hours for the shops;
2) Speedcave Switch room race + Speedcave race, 4 hours for the shops.

how should we use colosseum guide? 30 minutes before the race or during the race?

Personally, I'd vote for:

Speedcave 2 hour shop race (it parallels our Kefka @ Narshe race in terms of length); Speedcave switch room race (potentially with a special condition, but we're already switching up both races so I don't see a huge need). If feedback disagrees I won't push it though. The second race ends up a bit shorter, but I like that as 4 hours feels a little too long. Any opinions?

I still say only look at the guide during the race. Mostly just because I still don't want to spend half an hour memorizing stuff beforehand. It's boring and wastes my time.