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FFVI Worlds Collide

#31
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Hey all! I just registered to post a few comments:

1) I agree with most of MarthSR's points, especially the second one. Characters being required for certain events would definitely help making every seed different, in my opinion. It's easy for a veteran player to finish the game with whatever characters and espers they find first, so often the same route could be used. Stuff being "locked behind other stuff" is unpredictable and fun, even more so when there's multiple "layers" of it.

2) Thank you AtmaTek for this great randomizer! It's definitely on the top of the list of things I didn't know I wanted. Plus, from the replies I see you've made in this thread so far, you sound like a great, classy, kind and knowledgeable person. I am equally thrilled, impressed and amazed!

3) I'll try and spread the word around, hopefully try and stream my first seed sometime this week. Also, it seems most open world randomizers have their own Discord server (FF4:FE, FF5:CD and ALTTPR, for example). Since joining a Discord server doesn't require an additionnal registration if you have a Discord account, perhaps it would help build the community a bit, if you're into that?

Thanks again and congrats on the release!
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#32
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(01-12-2020, 10:27 PM)AtmaTek Wrote: The seed should be the sixth line in the txt log file. Can you please verify it is missing?

I was more mentioning the ROM file itself that is like the "FF6.smc". Would be nice to be like "FF6_1234567.smc". Problem is the save file carries over if you play a new seed from the old seed, so have to delete the save file manually.
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(01-13-2020, 01:22 PM)cgdave Wrote: I wanted to note that I ran into an odd bug, when using the NPC on the falcon to unequip all members, it didn't unequip relics from Umaro during my first seed of this.

This is a holdover from vanilla; the unequip routine skips over Umaro, because otherwise it would unequip his regular equipment as well, which would leave you with no way to get the gear back on him.


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#34
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Bug found when using Very Easy mode (3 chars, 0 espers [3/0]): When trying to go to Kefka's Tower with three characters, a softlock occurs at the point where the game checks for Esper requirements. If I go with less than three, the allies check does its job in the sense that it tells me "Nope, find more people.". However, when that condition is fulfilled, the espers check seems to softlock the game.

Steps to reproduce bug:
- Generated 3/0 seed
- Got 3 characters, then went for Kefka's tower
- Camera mode shifts on the airship as it should, then goes to airship deck, but nothing happens at this point, when normally the group formation HUD should appear.
- Doesn't happen with x/1 seeds. So if at least one esper is in the requirements, and you fulfill said esper requirement, it works as expected.


Hope this helps!

EDIT: Oddly enough, BenshowSly reported to me that 3/0 seems to somewhat work when you have Edgar and Celes in your party. I could be all kinds of wrong here, but could it be that when the esper check on 3/0 fails, the game tries to default back to the vanilla script, which causes the game to softlock should Edgar and Celes be absent? Just thinking out loud here.
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  • AtmaTek (01-14-2020)

#35
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Edit Misread the log (initially thought I had missed Alexandr from phoenix cave).... turns out that Alexandr was in the phantom train...which I defeated instead of finding the ghost NPC. (initially thought I had missed Alexandr from phoenix cave)

Seed:

9vxqhzucth7q

Global

Second seed I did a lower% run with 10 espers and 4 characters as the minimums. I recommend having the credits/ending reflect missed characters/espers. I know that Vanilla FF6's ending had something to reflect missed characters.

More general feedback: Having a scaling exp, based on characters/espers acquired would be a welcome and adapted return from ff4:Free Enterprise. Same with boss shuffle, stat scaling included. I do like the challenge that boss stat scaling with level offers, insofar as speedrun-type events are concerned.
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  • AtmaTek (01-14-2020)

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Only played for an hour and 20 minutes or so to get used to how the randomizer works, but I'm enjoying it.

Some thoughts I had, although I acknowledge that some of them are settings-related and can be changed before generating a seed:

- the default exp multiplier on easy is way too high, IMO - maybe start with 5x or something as the default? (upon closer inspection of the difficulty levels, realized the starting multipliers varied based on what you selected and can be edited further, so you can ignore this.)

- shop prices, under the random setting, are way too wild. Maybe less variation in the prices of things, or scale it based on the quality of the item, particularly for armor/weapons in the latter case? In a seed I was streaming earlier (I loaded the seed up again to check some item shop prices in South Figaro), I saw the following: Phoenix Down for 56,309, Tent (listed twice) for 41,139, and Tincture for 38,688. In the Narshe item shop, I saw Antidotes for 59,907, Revivify/Holy Water for 48,213, and Green Cherry for 17,300. Consumable items shouldn't sell for that much, IMO.

- scaling enemies is great, and as an FF4 Free Enterprise veteran, felt it was a welcome change from the "Vanilla" monster progression that randomizer has (where you can just plow through the game if you do some leveling early enough), unless you run into a particularly rude boss/location.

And one question, about Gogo, since I got him in the first seed I rolled (which caused me to roll a new seed): It has been quite a while since I used him in a run, and he was always only available in the World of Ruin, where you had access to all of the skills in the game. When I went to edit his menu, it had nothing available. Is this intended because I haven't "unlocked" any skills like Sabin's Blitz, Edgar's Tools, or Cyan's SwdTech?
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  • AtmaTek (01-14-2020)

#37
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Updated to 0.1.4:
- Added a new party scaling option "Party Highest Level" and made it the new default. The original option to scale enemies with the party's average level is now under the "Easy" and "Very Easy" presets. Scaling with the highest level party member will increase the difficulty while also making it easier to level a lower party member in a team of higher level characters. Thanks to MarthSR and others for their feedback about the scaling. In the future, I would also like to implement a progress based scaling option.
- Added a new "Extra Enemy Levels" option which increases all enemy and boss levels by the given amount. For now I left the default at 0. I hope more skilled players can use it to increase the challenge for lower level parties. Thanks to Imperatus for the idea.
- Experience, magic points, and gold multipliers may now be set to zero. A streamer (I apologize for not remembering the person's name) requested the ability to not gain experience or levels.
Please note that seeds and flags may not be compatible across versions. As always, I welcome opinions on any of these settings.


(01-12-2020, 11:18 PM)Imperatus Wrote: One additional comment: I'd love to see additional characters added into the character pool, as well as the ability to have duplicates.
Duplicates would be fun but difficult to accomplish and likely requires rewriting code in quite a number of places. However, I am sure it can be done as a longer term goal.

(01-12-2020, 11:18 PM)Imperatus Wrote: Have you joined the FF6 Hacking Discord server yet? Or do you have your own for FF6WC?
I have checked the FF6 Hacking Discord a few times for feedback and opinions and will continue to check it occasionally. I am starting to feel that a discord for FF6WC could help out a lot with gathering opinions and having more real-time discussion. I do not have any experience setting up a discord server and would appreciate any help people can offer with setting up, organizing and moderating it.

(01-12-2020, 11:35 PM)HoxNorf Wrote: - One more thing I found while using this X-Zone cheese is that even when the 2 things were X-Zone'd, WrexSoul appeared as well as another thing. I couldn't snapshot or record it, but I hope nothing like using zinger on its minions happen.
Did you have the Vanish/Doom bugfix on? I also modified this battle's AI so it is possible there is a bug in the script. I will test this out again when I get a chance. Thank you.

(01-12-2020, 11:35 PM)HoxNorf Wrote: - Also, about the sprites, maybe randomizing palettes that are within the randomizer will balance out, just as long as the character still looks good in another palette, which is skin, outline, eyes looking good and not being a jumbled mess, just like how it is in Free Enterprise if a palette being randomized is chosen and how it is in Beyond Chaos, but I feel like now I'm giving suggestions that makes this randomizer like others instead of its own thing, unless it can be considered a good thing.
I definitely consider it a good thing to learn from others who have faced this problem. I have not looked into how Beyond Chaos or FF4E handles sprite palettes so I really appreciate your insight. That seems like a reasonable approach although it sounds like it might take some time to verify that the palettes look decent. If you do have an example of a character that looks good in other palettes that would help to see. After bugs and balancing issues start to become more stable I will continue looking into sprites.

(01-13-2020, 11:33 AM)MarthSR Wrote: Boss encounters can easily be cheesed by adding one or two low levels in the party, and having that one high level with that one key ability do all the dirty work.
I added a new scaling option to use the highest level in the party rather than the party's average and made it the new default. I hope that helps with this issue. Scaling based on progress so far would also be something I would like to look into as well but would take longer to implement. Thank you for bringing this up.

(01-13-2020, 11:33 AM)MarthSR Wrote: nothing is really "gated" behind items, which makes this rando sort of a "Find the most optimal character/item route, do that on all seeds, and get a great time" one-trick pony. Perhaps requiring to have certain characters to access certain parts would be a way to have the route vary?
I really appreciate your (as well as other experienced speedrunner's) feedback about this. I want to make runs as interesting as possible so ideas from veterans really helps. If I understand what you mean, once players discover which events are quickest to complete the best approach will be to repeat that same path over and over until you get the luckiest. To help alleviate this characters would each have to unlock multiple new events to better prevent one single optimal route. Does that sound correct to you?

I believe you are right and I will probably need to implement some kind of progression system eventually to keep things interesting. I will start giving some more thought to exactly where/what the gates may be.

(01-13-2020, 05:30 PM)TheSabin Wrote: I was more mentioning the ROM file itself that is like the "FF6.smc". Would be nice to be like "FF6_1234567.smc". Problem is the save file carries over if you play a new seed from the old seed, so have to delete the save file manually.
Thank you for clarifying, I apologize for misunderstanding. I can definitely make this change.

(01-13-2020, 10:43 PM)MarthSR Wrote: Bug found when using Very Easy mode (3 chars, 0 espers [3/0]): When trying to go to Kefka's Tower with three characters, a softlock occurs at the point where the game checks for Esper requirements.
Thank you for reporting this, I will try to get it fixed as soon as I can.

(01-13-2020, 11:01 PM)Megakidi Wrote: I recommend having the credits/ending reflect missed characters/espers. I know that Vanilla FF6's ending had something to reflect missed characters.
Thank you for the recommendation. For now I have not spent much time on the ending except making it work and thought seeing all the characters might be fun. In the future, I can make that change.

(01-13-2020, 11:01 PM)Megakidi Wrote: Having a scaling exp, based on characters/espers acquired would be a welcome and adapted return from ff4:Free Enterprise. Same with boss shuffle, stat scaling included.
I absolutely agree and hope to start working on more features like these once the game gets more stable. Thank you.

Again it is very late for me so I will have to continue tomorrow. I apologize if I have not been able to address everyone yet. I am trying to balance making changes with reading through everyone's ideas and comments. I appreciate people taking the time to do things like make an account and post feedback.

Thank you.
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#38
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AtmaTek: By gating, MarthSR means (and I know because we discussed it a lot Tongue ) that for example, in the FF4 Free Enterprise, you get Magma Key that gets you underground to go along with the Tower Key you got and that Tower Key unlocks the Luca Key and this one gives you the Darkness Crystal that allows you to go to the moon and finish the boss.

In your FF6 WC (which I haven't gotten a chance yet to say how wonderful it looks and how a bright future it has), nothing leads to nothing. I know for Esper, it would be harder but some of the ideas we got were related to the game events. Here a few examples I have thought for each character (of course, it's only ONE example for each but there can be more like needing Cyan for Zozo Mountain, Doma Castle Commander and his own dream)

Ex: - Celes is required to finish Opera House (Not necessarily in the party but you must find her)
- Terra must be found (but again, not necessarily in the party... assume it is the case for the next examples Tongue) to be able to be Phunbaba
- Cyan must be found to access his dream
- Locke must be found to get to Celes' spot in South Figaro
- Setzer gives access to Daryll's Tomb
- Edgar is needed to go to basement of Figaro Castle and activate the castle after the boss
- Sabin is needed to access the Phantom Train
- Strago is needed for Burning House
- Gogo to go in his/her own cave
- Umaro to go in his own cavern
- Gau can activate the Trench
- Relm for the painting in Jidoor
- Shadow for the Floating Island
- Mog to get whatever is at the "hostage situation" in Narshe.

Of course, this is only ONE example for each character but you can have a lot of them for a few characters. What could be the beauty of it is the fact that you have to start with a character so the things unlocked at the beginning can vary! Of course, it means there is a lot of conditions to input in algorythm but in the long run, that would make the whole thing ieven more nteresting and not just repeating the same hunt all over again.

Just imagine... First seed, you have Terra. You can unlock Phunbaba spot, get whatever is at Ramuh Spot, Whelk can be unlocked, maybe Lete River with Ultros?, However, if you start with Gogo, you have one spot available and it's his own cavern.

Of course, some spots would be open no matter what. Those who are not related to specific characters... like...  well, strange enough, while I'm writing this, I have more issues finding free spots than character related ones Tongue

If it is something that interests you, I can send you a list of hwat I scrumbled on my side following that idea, if it can help you in the process. I would gladly share the work I did for the fun of it.

Of course, it is a long process and  it will be a massive update if it happens so.... I mention that without expecting it like tomorrow morning neither Tongue

Keep up the awesome work!
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#39
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Quote:I have checked the FF6 Hacking Discord a few times for feedback and opinions and will continue to check it occasionally. I am starting to feel that a discord for FF6WC could help out a lot with gathering opinions and having more real-time discussion. I do not have any experience setting up a discord server and would appreciate any help people can offer with setting up, organizing and moderating it.

Can definitely help with setting it up, although it's really not complicated in the slightest. I could also help moderate it for the time being, but would eventually step down from moderation duties per se once you have a good moderating team in place as I hate hate hate hate hate hate hate hate hate hate hate hate hate hate hate hate hate hate hate hate hate moderating. It is an ungrateful job, and I commend anyone with the fortitude to press on doing that. Y'all are way better than me in that regard. Laugh
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(01-14-2020, 07:31 AM)AtmaTek Wrote: Scaling with the highest level party member will increase the difficulty while also making it easier to level a lower party member in a team of higher level characters.

A friend of mine found that they were blasting things with Stone from Brawler Rage(and later, Gogo and Strago could learn it by being in the same battle). Scaling with highest level party member may even make this easier on average, because just giving those three a couple levels over the rest allows them to take advantage of the 8x damage from being the same level rather easily. Not sure how to go about this other than just leaving it in, but perhaps it would be possible to have the scaling randomly pick one level above or one level below, reducing Stone to only having a 1/3 chance of being very powerful.

(01-14-2020, 07:31 AM)AtmaTek Wrote: Did you have the Vanish/Doom bugfix on? I also modified this battle's AI so it is possible there is a bug in the script. I will test this out again when I get a chance. Thank you.
Vanish/Doom bugfix doesn't fix the WrexSoul battle because the SoulSavers are naturally vulnerable to Instant Death.


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