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Official FF6: Beyond Chaos thread (randomizer)

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Hey Everyone! I absolutely love randomizers and FF6 Beyond Chaos is super fun to play. I had a question though. I watched the permadeath playthrough and some other runs and some of the sprites were custom from either other rpgs and other final fantasy games. Now are these already included in beyond chaos or do they need to be added somehow? I would love to hear back from you all. Thanks!  Pray Cast
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Beyond Chaos EX V3 is now available: https://github.com/subtractionsoup/beyon...ses/latest

New stuff: k@n mode; dragon hunt mode; more sprites; more music; better palettes; more balanced MiaBs; Mog, Umaro, and Gogo locations randomized; remembers your last used ROM; bunch of bug fixes; and some secrets. See the changelog for all details.
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Could you, for the love of f**k, please. please, PLEASE institute the following two changes. There are other issues, but these two are massively, and consistently, irritating.

1 - Make the random party thing for the final Kefka fight a flag. Of the many, MANY times Jack and I have raced this, the main thing sucking up time has been him throwing himself at the Kefka wall over and over with random parties, and losing for an hour or two, until he lucks out and finally manages to kill the final boss because he got the good characters. He is not losing due to skill. He is not losing due to knowledge of the game. He is losing because the randomization keeps lumping him with garbage characters who can't hack it.
We have come to the conclusion that the only real way to race the Worring Triad is to just take 6-8 characters into Kefka's tower to begin with, and deal with the annoyances that presents, because it will take less time to figure out how to kill very annoying bosses with 1-2 characters than it will to get a decent roll on a full party Kefka-rush.
It's randomization for the sake of it. It is annoying as hell. It presents nothing beyond inconvenience to the player (especially until notawaiter cuts out the pre-fight cut-scene). Please, for the love of deity, make this a flag.

2 - Just list the f**k**g flags and what they do. If they're not finished, just say so. All having secret flags does (beyond alpha stage projects) is annoy people. Honestly, every single time I'm forced to read through the FAQ and the changelog I want to do two things: 1 - get drunk to reduce my massive annoyance, and 2 - punch Abyssonym in the face for being pretentious and annoying. I respect and appreciate the work you guys have put into this mod, but I really wish you guys could respect and appreciate the players on the other end.
I can think of exactly 0 legitimate reasons to hide this information from players, and, when presenting it, STILL f**k**g HIDE IT with encoding. What purpose does this serve beyond annoying people? I should not have to search the web for 10-20 minutes to find out what a flag does. I should not have to read the FAQ and still have no idea what "Beyond Chaos Bingo" is.
Why is this information not just outright stated? Who is it helping to hide it? It is not enhancing anyone's experience. All it does is irritate me every time I see a reference to a code or a mode, and have either no idea what it does, or no idea how to make the randomizer do it. Please stop obfuscating highly useful information for no reason.

Again, I love this mod, and I appreciate the effort various people have put into it, but I don't think you guys are putting much effort into UX, because you consistently do things which degrade the experience I have with what is otherwise gold.
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(08-21-2019, 02:20 AM)MrEntity Wrote: Honestly, every single time I'm forced to read through the FAQ and the changelog
Nobody's forcing you.
(08-21-2019, 02:20 AM)MrEntity Wrote: 2 - punch Abyssonym in the face for being pretentious and annoying.

Abyssonym is not actively working on it. You want to punch me in the face.

(08-21-2019, 02:20 AM)MrEntity Wrote: I respect and appreciate the work you guys have put into this mod

Doesn't read like it.
(08-21-2019, 02:20 AM)MrEntity Wrote: I can think of exactly 0 legitimate reasons to hide this information from players, and, when presenting it, STILL f**k**g HIDE IT with encoding. What purpose does this serve beyond annoying people?
1) Since you complain about having to read the FAQ, I assume you want the codes to be listed out when running the randomizer like the flags are. That's a UX nightmare. New players already struggle with the wall of text describing the flags.
2) When new players find out about the secret codes, they tend to put a whole bunch of them in, have a bad time, and go around telling people Beyond Chaos sucks.
3) For the most part, the codes are either to help debugging, goofs, or intended to spice things up for players who are already familiar with the randomizer.
4) The codes that I think are suitable for general use are in the README in plaintext. Or most of them anyway. Arguably a few more could be added.
5) Despite all that, the rest of the codes are in the README in ROT13 as a gentle discouragement to using them without just keeping them entirely secret. You're welcome.

(08-21-2019, 02:20 AM)MrEntity Wrote: I should not have to search the web for 10-20 minutes to find out what a flag does. I should not have to read the FAQ and still have no idea what "Beyond Chaos Bingo" is.

You don't have to do either of those. You don't have to know what the codes do at all because they're bonus content, not the main experience. And it takes less than 20 minutes to translate the ROT13, type it in, and see for yourself. Most of them are pretty obvious, pretty quickly.

(08-21-2019, 02:20 AM)MrEntity Wrote: Why is this information not just outright stated? Who is it helping to hide it? It is not enhancing anyone's experience.
It is helping the new players who already have an overwhelming number of flags to look at and frequently make poor decisions about which ones to pick. It is also enhancing my experience of not seeing newbies get frustrated after picking dumb options.

(08-21-2019, 02:20 AM)MrEntity Wrote: All it does is irritate me every time I see a reference to a code or a mode, and have either no idea what it does, or no idea how to make the randomizer do it. Please stop obfuscating highly useful information for no reason.
It's not highly useful. It's bonus content for you to explore, like deleted scenes on a DVD. That's how I think of them: as something extra you're being given rather than something you're being denied.

(08-21-2019, 02:20 AM)MrEntity Wrote: I don't think you guys are putting much effort into UX
Apart from the fact that nobody's gotten around to making a GUI, actually a lot of effort has gone into UX. For example, the list of modes with short descriptions is new. The ancient cave modes there used to be secret codes. Emberling added a speed dial that lets you save commonly used flags. I added a built-in speed dial for recommend new player flags, and made it remember your last used ROM so you don't have to type the path every time. I added the feature to type '-' to use all flags EXCEPT the ones you typed, removed two seldom used and confusing flags that affected the sorting of rages, and changed the flags to print in alphabetical order instead of whatever arbitrary order abyssonym added them. AND I simplified and updated much of the README, if you can believe that. And very minorly hiding the codes not meant for general use is part of the UX.

Anyway, constructive criticism is fine, but spouting off isn't a good way to change my mind.

As for your other complaint, currently whether the characters are random in the final battle if you have both the fix exploits flag (b), and any of random enemy stats (m), random enemy formations (f), or randomized final dungeon (d). I'm not sure what abyssonym's thinking behind that was. It's probably reasonable to just tie it to the randomized final dungeon, but I don't want to make it its own flag because there's already a lot, resulting in a big wall of text.
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  • madsiur (08-21-2019)

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This discussion is surprisingly parallel to discussion we just had on the Discord server, like, yesterday. I guess that shouldn't be surprising since it was Jackimus that was talking about it. I'm still of the opinion to include other codes while simultaneously dissuading new players from using them.

Regardless, interest for a GUI exists, and the only thing stopping it is just the fact that it's, I assume, a significant undertaking. This would theoretically make it easier to list things in a more user-friendly and thorough way.


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I have good memories of you and Jackimus racing with or without us some year ago, pls don't spoil them jumping inside this thread in that way...


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Jack and I have played this mod to death. We f**k**g love it. Please don't misconstrue our long-thought-about/many-times-encountered issues as me being a dick. 

For one, the random party Kefka battle should just be a flag. I can see no reason not to make it so. 
For two, you could very VERY easily dissuade new/inexperienced players from using complicated flags by listing them under a different heading. There's no reason to hide shit unless it doesn't work yet.
For three, virtually everything Subtraction wrote is simply pretentious. Please stop thinking you know how a game should work better than your players. Especially those who play your game A LOT (and especially especially those who are trained in game design) just because you think you know better and are being precious about your work and choices.

The one thing every creative person needs to learn about their work is that their initial idea is almost never the best idea. Just because you've worked on it for a long time doesn't mean it is optimal. The first lessons every creative person should learn is how to look at their work and self-evaluate. It's tough. It requires empathy. You have to know how other people are going to see it. They aren't going to be relying on your personal IKEA effect. Just because you made it, doesn't mean it's good.

People are responding as though I'm being antagonistic. The only person I'm being antagonistic to is Abyssonym. Because f**k that guy. He's pretentious AF, and he seems to have no interest in his audience. He happens to be very good at making randomizers (that other people make playable), but overall, he seems to be completely up his own ass. He needs to understand the audience is more important than he is.

Don't be that guy Subtraction Soup.
 



(Jack here (bitches represent etc))

For four, Andrew means well -  deal with it.

As I have said in the discord, and honestly most things have been actually considered (thankee) an accessible randomizer is a popular one. I know the focus tends to be on challenge runs and/or permadeaths right now.... the potential for races on this is honestly immense. If you build it, they (we if you count all the peeps I can send this way when) will come. As said, there are simple ways to accommodate all crowds... flags. Options. Customization is good.

That said; we've already reached a beautiful agreement in the discord about not just a GUI; but no more secret features etc. I am extremely optimistic about where this randomizer is going- take this from a guy who frequently participates in nerd randomizer shenanigans, and might also have won a fight against dat dere mike tyson kid without looking >_<

TLDR: This randomizer rocks!: please don't be pretentious pricks and ruin it before it gets it's footing
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I worked in the video game industry for over a decade. I say that not to claim I know better than everyone else, but only to claim that experience taught me one thing in particular: the people who play your games are frequently TERRIBLE at giving useful feedback, especially the ones who can't do it without using insults or otherwise acting entitled.

I want people to have fun with Beyond Chaos, but working on it is my HOBBY, not my JOB: I do it for fun, and putting up with demands and insults is not fun. I DO accept feedback and suggestions, including some I don't think are very good! But not from people repeatedly insulting me.

In just this last message, you said I am "pretentious" multiple times; that I am "precious about my work"; that I think things are automatically good because I made them; that I think all of my initial ideas are good; that I am incapable of evaluating my work; that I lack empathy.

You are, in fact, being a dick, no misconstruing about it.

(09-15-2019, 12:12 AM)MrEntity Wrote: For four, Andrew means well -  deal with it.

No. I'm not going to listen to or respond to you any further—you deal with it.
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  • madsiur (09-15-2019), NPCnextdoor (09-15-2019), Tenkarider (09-15-2019), Warrax (09-17-2019)

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This is probably at least partially my fault.  I said that I would make a GUI a long time ago, but I've struggled to get around to it.  Part of the problem, for me at least, is that when I'm working 40 hours a week doing something (programming), it's hard for me to want to come back home and do more of it.  It's a bit frustrating because I know that I can do it, but it's hard to be motivated to do it.  The biggest reason why nobody else has made great advances in the UX department is probably because I said I would do it and then never did.  And it's a bit hard to see some of the trees when there's still a giant forest in the room, if that makes any sense.  Sorry about that. Sad

Andrew, while I'd personally agree with both of your criticisms themselves (and I'm pretty sure that I brought the second one up myself a long time ago), I still think the tone of these posts is a bit harsh.  I understand that these things have probably been frustrating you guys for a while now, but it's hard not to get defensive when faced with criticism that is framed like this IMO.  It's not the fact that BC is being criticized at all that SubtractionSoup is rejecting.

Can we all just start this conversation over?


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