Racing on twitch with Beyond Chaos

The ultimate step: randomize data/hour/time limit and the content of posts wrote in this thread!

Randomizing rules? when FF6 BC will become an official e-sport, ok? well if that would happen for real i'd be glad to do it!

@Catone: Ok, once in a while you might do it(count me out in that case, not more than a watcher) but knowing the exploits of bosses(especially status weaknesses) is even more annoying than keeping lose against them, from my point of view...

Lastly, it couldn't be unfair if all racers had open access to the information. Would only be an issue of who made the best use of their time, read it all at the start, or as a referance on the fly.

That's what i fear the most: you're exactly describing what would become a "reading the guide race": it means R.I.P randomization and the one who's faster to search and obtain the useful information becomes the winner... it's so wrong that i don't even know from where to start. (i hope i'm not the only one to thinking that)


Glad to hear that Cecil188 is agree with my guide restriction...

"Who's faster to search and obtain the useful information"

Okay, lets cut that down just a bit more to:

"Who's faster"

Is this not the very definition of a race? Second, while I really can't hold it against someone for not wanting to race/play if certain rules are in (or in some case are not in) effect, is that not in itself killing the point of randomization? By absolutely rejecting randomization of certain things and only accepting randomization of other certain things? Also, what is the difference between a player choosing to attempt an instant death move on a boss, (taking the gamble of wasting that turn, or winning instantly) vs choosing to attempt to look up the same info not knowing if it is or is not there?

To be honest, if the only races are ran with only one set of unchanging rules and standards, sorry but eventually its gonna get stale, even with the amount of randomization your will to accept. Frankly, its great to see this stuff happening, but if your only willing to mix it up in one very specific way, its not gonna last.

Oh, actually there's another great idea for randomization! A randomize the racers! You'll be able to view only the top half of your screen, the bottom half will be randomly replaced with another racer's. Also the controls will randomly change every 5minutes to a different configuration. Good luck!

Yes that would be a bit extreme, but don't be afraid to race outside your comfort zone, if everybody is running under the same rules its still a race, even if the rules don't favor your strong points. Keep it jumping and it won't die.

I agree with Tenka as far as saying that playing with the guide is probably less fun than playing without it. But I also agree with Catone that mixing it up and using different rules every now and again is probably more fun than finding the "best" way to race and playing it over and over. I don't think we should randomize rules at this point lol, but I'd be willing to play a variation that I don't like as much just to get some variety.

That said, I don't think you can cut down Tenka's statement to "Who's faster" and have it hold here. It certainly is important what you're faster at. Imagine, for next Olympics, we were to make a new rule saying that after the 50 yard dash all participants would have to answer a graduate level particle physics problem to clock in. Evidently it's still about who's faster, but it still defeats the purpose of the 50 yard dash if Stephen Hawking could beat Usain Bolt. And no, the 50 yard dash probably isn't even a thing. And yes, I had to Google Usain Bolt.

PS: Since you've posted in this thread Catone, are you interested in joining?

Not even sure my internet would allow it, time frame is always an issue as well, no days off. Would almost have to play it through, then start uploading the video when everybody else starts while I go to sleep. Then there's the issue with me being just flat out slower than death while playing any game.

Point being, I wouldn't mind being a filler player at some point just to contribute, but alot of work and testing would be required to figure out the best way to pull it off. THAT being said, I damn sure support the whole idea 100%.

The reason for posting at all, is yes the idea of allowing full use of a guide in the occasional race, and I just felt it was a good opening to thow out the topic of mixing up the rules from time to time. Sure, the "optimal" rule set would be ideal for a tier one race, but tier two should throw in a curve to make sure the champ is really the champ, not just able to reuse the same tactic to win 90% of the time.

And, actually your example, Lockirby is perfect. It also happens, that it is still a mater of who's faster. Under thwt set of rules, Hawkings would be faster at answering a tough question. A different set of rules and he'd be the slowest on the track. Would something like open guide be a perfect rule set for a serious match? Of course not, but it would be a twist from time to time, that would reward a different set of skills, yet still allow anyone to compete.

Okay, lets cut that down just a bit more to:

"Who's faster"

Lockirby2 said exactly what i wanted to hear... the fact is not promote a certain set of skill, if those skill are not gaming skills(speedrunners surely plan their speedrun before starting, but here there's not even planning involved, since you read it while racing and it's still not a gaming skill)

what is the difference between a player choosing to attempt an instant death move on a boss, (taking the gamble of wasting that turn, or winning instantly) vs choosing to attempt to look up the same info not knowing if it is or is not there?

Gamble is random and wasting a turn might mean gameover(and being reached from the others) search a weakness is a matter of typing boss's name and make a quick find search of not more than 10 seconds... not really a risky gamble, the first one has also more in common with random factor.

But I also agree with Catone that mixing it up and using different rules every now and again is probably more fun than finding the "best" way to race and playing it over and over

Actually i'm the first one who talked about making on request themed races, in which it was possible to race with different sets of flags and/or (in particular) adding secret codes to all the flags used... even if i wanna do my first race without changing rules i'm not against rule variation, still i'd like much more that the variation would revolve more around flags and codes rather than the way of consulting the guide(that's a funny way to define it a rule variation)
I was fighting for consulting only Colosseum prizes because if you include only that then it was possible to include it among standard rules and not an exception, since not doing it would just kill colosseum feature in a race.


We need to quickly define what will be standard and not an exception since we're already wasting a lot of time discussing now... one thing would be if we complete 2 cycles of races(i'll define cycle as tournament starting from now) each week, but we barely manage to handle one tournament within an entire month!
It's so slow that hearing that it will be played a rule that i completely dislike sounds more like: "great, i won't race for an entire month..."

We need to quickly define

No we don't. Who's up for a game of what the hell ever tomorrow after the Jays game!?

Tenkarider, saying "great, I won't race for an entire month" because of A (ONE SINGLE) rule, not just one concerning any use of a guide, but any rule you don't like, is not being open to rule variation. That phrase has been said more than once in this thread by a few people. "If your doing that rule, then I'm not racing". Again that is not being open to variation.

Also, how is using a guide for the collesseum the only way that it is useful? You say attempting a death move on a boss not knowing if it will work is a gamble, yet betting an item in the collesseum while not knowing what the result will be, is a reason not to play at all?

Eitherway, I'll shut up now. There is no point in attempting to discuss anything with someone that's already decided they are always right, and their way is the only way.

Good luck,

Tenkarider, saying "great, I won't race for an entire month" because of A (ONE SINGLE) rule, not just one concerning any use of a guide, but any rule you don't like, is not being open to rule variation. That phrase has been said more than once in this thread by a few people. "If your doing that rule, then I'm not racing". Again that is not being open to variation.

I'll admit it: this time i abused of the "I'm not racing" thing, it's just that i liked more the original way we were agree about reading all guide optional rule, (30 minutes before the race starts racers can consult the guide) when Jack said unlimited use while racing that didn't like me at all... i'm a slowpoke in general, if i add that rule i can search really few stuff and only at the beginning or i'll really skrew up the race and i hate losing for something totally different from raw gaming(as far we're talking about a gaming race)
I also abused of that because in the really end i'll probably just race and using the guide for what i consider essential to know, despite i hate this rule(sure, as far it's something we'll do once in a while)
PS. even if i said those stuff all the other previous statements about why i think it's not great are still valid... but if we wanna race with that in future, well let's just do it!

Also, how is using a guide for the collesseum the only way that it is useful? You say attempting a death move on a boss not knowing if it will work is a gamble, yet betting an item in the collesseum while not knowing what the result will be, is a reason not to play at all?

Death/Stone are just 2 gambles in a fight: if it's vulnerable you won; if not or he dodge the spell you wasted a turn.
Betting in colosseum are 255 different gambles, 90% of the item you can obtain are worthless/redundant/not worth the effort/impossible to obtain(too much strong or always sneeze) that 10% of item left are tonics, dried meat, elemental rods and shields and few other stuff: Abyss said he'll make healing consumables more common in first shops, so i assume it won't be anymore worth betting for them;
while it's predictable to know what to bet for healing consumables(not worth in the near future) and top tier stuff, (impossible to obtain) mid and high stuff are definitely impossible to guess on fly(unless you are extremely lucky) and most of the items to bet for them fall in those 2 groups, in other words it's unreasonable trying to search for a elem. shield without a guide and hoping to not waste at least an hour for that, (100% you lose the race) without even consider that even among shields there's some unwinnable fight, even in the best case the enemy level should be ~LV28, so only quite late in the race you'll be able to win the fight(and backtracking a lot if the colisseum was one of the first shops)
So it's not the same gambling for exploit a status weakness and gambling for finding a few selected range of desired items that you can even win(still assuming they'll appear in the list, yeah it can happen even that)

Eitherway, I'll shut up now. There is no point in attempting to discuss anything with someone that's already decided they are always right, and their way is the only way.

I'm sorry you think that about me, i'm stubborn but i don't think to always be right(i rarely am completely right) and my solution is never the only one:
On a side note i'm debating on make as standard rule use guide only for colosseum; guide while racing is an optional rule so there's no way they can conflict each other, what i'm saying against it is what is an equal gamble and what not; never said you don't have to use this rule.


Said that if i pissed you off i'm really sorry, that wasn't my intention.

I reiterate that the point of the randomiser is to not know things - to play a game as though for the first time i.e. figuring stuff out as you go. If you want to read the guide you might as well just play the original game where you know everything anyway.
I am kind of fine with reading the coliseum stuff since otherwise the coliseum is a complete waste of time. I am less fine, but still kind of okay, with reading the guide as we race and weighing race-time versus reading-time. Reading the entire guide ahead of time, however, stops it from being a gaming competition and turns it into a memorization competition and I really, really don't like that idea; the randomiser is designed to take your knowledge away.

Also, gambling on a death move etc. takes one quarter of one turn. It is not exactly a huge time buy-in.

I've pretty much decided that the best course of action is to implement the "racecave" code, and have it output a guide that only includes colosseum information. I think that's the solution that best satisfies everyone's criteria. People can still race the "speedcave" mode but it will be aimed at people who want to do a long speedrun (although still in one sitting), while "racecave" will do its best to hit a 3-4 hour mark to accommodate the schedules of multiple participants.