FF6 Hacking

Quote:Please explain this... Does an open world with nothing in it is actually better?

According to the situation, the answer might even be yes.
World map were actually empty, thinking about that better... aside FF9 Chocobo treasure hunt and few similar quests, the main purpose of a map should be connect the locations, not to be the main location of the game, all what i actually expect from a map is an enjoyable travel and find secret locations that leads to submaps or just new locations that leads to submaps.
Random fights are welcomed of course but after all the essential is that.
so i might group what i hate of open worlds in 3 points:
- world location becomes full of unnecessary shit;
- most of the times quests revolve around search that shit;
- world becomes a huge sub map, rather than a connection between sub maps.
(some open world game might not have all the 3 points at the same time in their game)
After all mankind since ages makes maps to semplify the representation of the planet, that must be why i like world maps in game.

Quote:So is a map, every developer can do one. SE never claimed until now that they wanted to do a complete new kind of game, they only said the remake would be different from the original. Also, I think every AAA game wants to be different. I'm understanding you're saying that open worlds is a big trend and some are shitty, but be aware that they could come up with a crappy map as well.

Everybody can do that but nobody does it... why?
i'd rather prefer to see them fail with a world map rather than a open world, even because i've never seen a failure map until now(the closest thing that comes in my mind is FF2 world map because it was too much wide since the beginning and well... it was quite similar to an open world on a second thought: if you spend a whole day exploring a map and still no made any significant progress, then it's a bad sign)

Quote:I can feel in your post you're disliking the idea of open world in any circumstances and in any context, but that can't be backed up with "arguments", it's just a solid personal taste.

About FF7 i think you're goddamn right
I might tollerate it(still it should be done well), if we weren't talking about great milestones of video game history

(12-19-2015, 05:18 PM)Tenkarider Wrote: [ -> ]the main purpose of a map should be connect the locations, not to be the main location of the game, all what i actually expect from a map is an enjoyable travel and find secret locations that leads to submaps or just new locations that leads to submaps.

So you're telling me a map is an open world and vice versa since you compare one of the (false) open world feature to the logic of a map. I talk about open world, you answer with a statement an open world is a bad map because it doesn't have the right feature that pertain to a map.........

They are both two different things, an you could even have large OPEN locations within a map. An open world can have many locations if divided correctly, it's not just one big location like you suggest.

(12-19-2015, 05:18 PM)Tenkarider Wrote: [ -> ]so i might group what i hate of open worlds in 3 points:
- world location becomes full of unnecessary shit;
- most of the times quests revolve around search that shit;
- world becomes a huge sub map, rather than a connection between sub maps.

Why would an open world FF7 would automatically have MMO RPGs beginner's quests? Why would Cloud need to collect 10 tissues before being able to ride the shuttle to the gold saucer? Why would draw points in a FF8 remakes make more sense out in the grass in the middle of nowhere on a mini-map rather than in an actual location under a suspect object? I'm applying your logic to other games because frankly it doesn't stand on solid grounds. Why does everything in an open world is unnecessary shit (treasures, loots, etc...) but is ok and suitable for an empty/invisible spots? Is a loot won from a monster in a open world uneccesary but not from a random encounter? Are you talking about MMO RPGs again, which what the remake will not be? Is FFXII full of uneccesary shit because it contain open world locations?

(12-19-2015, 05:18 PM)Tenkarider Wrote: [ -> ]After all mankind since ages makes maps to semplify the representation of the planet, that must be why i like world maps in game.

I can understand that, but the purpose of a wold map in PS1/SNES RPGs is not to simplify the world because there is NOTHING to simplify. You can't decide to investigate and look closer on a certain path you're walking because the only place you can see in details is town A you just left and cave B you're going to. Writing that makes me realize an open world with a smaller scale map to travel faster would be a good option.

(12-19-2015, 05:18 PM)Tenkarider Wrote: [ -> ]i've never seen a failure map until now(the closest thing that comes in my mind is FF2 world map because it was too much wide since the beginning and well... it was quite similar to an open world on a second thought: if you spend a whole day exploring a map and still no made any significant progress, then it's a bad sign)

Big small scale map is not an open world. Having a linear world map is not good either, if the only available path in more than 70% of the time is the connection between two locations and the only exploration or so you can do is when you get an airship. Even then, early RPGs had to plan everything in order to restrict your exploration.

Your position is the same as someone 20 years ago would was cursing the FF7 3D model replacing sprites. Wolrd map can be fun but you can't deny that world maps were born more from technological limitations rather that an actual choice or preference. Same with 3D models. It doesn't mean no more world maps or sprites, FFIV:CC is a good example of a remake that keeps the roots elements but the DS remake is also very good with voice acting and 3D models. It's a matter of preference for you but you got to accept that an open world FF7 remake can be a logic choice for the developers given they want to make something different and realizing they have the possibility to show in much greater detail the FF7 universe.

Still I'm confident I'll be happy with any of the two options or a mix of both. What is not really acceptable in 2015 however is linearity given the technological possibilities, but neither a world map or open world cause that so it is another debate.

Quote:They are both two different things, an you could even have large OPEN locations within a map. An open world can have many locations if divided correctly, it's not just one big location like you suggest.

At least the worst thing that can happen in a map is that you have to fight lots of monsters and nothing else.
Dragon Dogma clearly wasn't divided correctly, at this point i might even have played to the worst RPG open world possible, (which is something you should never do as first experience...) anyway...

Quote:Why would an open world FF7 would automatically have MMO RPGs beginner's quests? Why would Cloud need to collect 10 tissues before being able to ride the shuttle to the gold saucer? Why would draw points in a FF8 remakes make more sense out in the grass in the middle of nowhere on a mini-map rather than in an actual location under a suspect object? I'm applying your logic to other games because frankly it doesn't stand on solid grounds. Why does everything in an open world is unnecessary shit (treasures, loots, etc...) but is ok and suitable for an empty/invisible spots? Is a loot won from a monster in a open world uneccesary but not from a random encounter? Are you talking about MMO RPGs again, which what the remake will not be? Is FFXII full of uneccesary shit because it contain open world locations?

as i wrote after not all open world necessarily have all the 3 points at the same time, draw points are not useless(and there are also secret spots of them, both in map and submaps)
Perhaps i should define better what is unnecessary shit... something like 2000000 items with more or less the same effect(or not even an effect) or an useless effect, that you keep to find everywhere, crushing your hopes of finding something interesting finally, that also defeats the purpose of explore any single zone of an open world
NOTE: yes that still comes from Dragon's Dogma and i'm pretty sure that will never happen in FF(right?!?)
The closest thing it comes to my mind are FF12 loots that can only be sold, but at least you clearly know that they have no other use aside that(not that i loved too much that FF12 feature...)

Quote:I can understand that, but the purpose of a wold map in PS1/SNES RPGs is not to simplify the world because there is NOTHING to simplify. You can't decide to investigate and look closer on a certain path you're walking because the only place you can see in details is town A you just left and cave B you're going to. Writing that makes me realize an open world with a smaller scale map to travel faster would be a good option.

Actually yes, for example in an open world if you go through a forest, you'll start to search trough all trees of the forest for something or someone and you'll probably spend a whole day for do that and maybe without even accomplish your goal or finding a clue.
In a world map there's just a not too big spot and even in the case you wanna explore any single piece of it, you'll be able to do that in less than 10-20 minutes, which is way more reasonable, even if you don't find anything, if there's something to hide you'll trigger something at a certain point or enter in a submap in which you can explore the forest better.
A smaller scale might be something, but(for example) Dragon Quest VIII had an insanely huge world map, even if you might spend days exploring that it would still be worth to do.
My impression about open world is that what makes them last long is the number of hours wasted during travels, world map games could even last around 100 hours but you always do something significant and you hardly spend all that time for world map travels... i think open world's length is "fake" length, like if they give you a huge area just to hide that the game is actually poor of real contents.

Quote:Having a linear world map is not good either

Never said that, but in FF2 there almost were "no borders" to limit the first area of world map, it was quite easy to lose your way and waste a whole day/s in random fights and nothing else

Quote:Even then, early RPGs had to plan everything in order to restrict your exploration

probably this is one of the main reason why i think they are better: because they had to plan everything... there's more planning on the maps there than in an open world, i'm not talking about make a map... i'm talking about design, calculate a map think to obstacles and how to design it in order to make accessible a certain areas in a certain moment, and it's not the invisible barrier or a closed door, rather than mountains, rivers or sea that type of obstacle.

Quote:you can't deny that world maps were born more from technological limitations rather that an actual choice or preference

There's no doubt i can't deny it, at the same time you can't deny that new technology became an actual limitation to game contents.
even with new technology now they need of split the whole game in slices, all in exchange of graphics.
Among the two i choose game contents.

http://www.siliconera.com/2015/12/21/fin...t-to-keep/

"Square Enix can’t say anything of the time being as far as map info goes, but they’re not going to put much focus on whether they’ll call it open world or sandbox. However, Nomura wants to have some kind of environment with backgrounds that can be affected by the characters."

Yeah, i read it some hour ago from another source, that scares me under many aspects and not in a good way, if they won't focus on a open world, that surely doesn't mean they'll focus on a world map instead... it's more like they might even do the third option: neither a open or a world map, which is the solution i labeled as "pathetic" some post ago.
There was also the thing about changing the bathroom scene in Honey Bee...
Get ready, this is just the beginning.

Personally, I think they want to avoid labeling it so that they don't predispose people towards thinking that it's one or the other.

I agree with Lockirby. They aren't going to say "no world map" or use the phrase "open world". It's too divisive of a topic in an RPG. If you say "World Map" the general public thinks retro. If you say "Open World" their minds instinctively go to MMO's or Skyrim. They are going to avoid suggesting any kind of feature comparisons until the game is closer to being released.

For the record though, If they could pull off a world map akin to Ni No Kuni's? That would be heaven. lol. Aaaaaaand if it's any consolation, Tenka, there's no way it's going to be a complete skyrim-esque open world; They've already discussed releasing the game in 'segments'. ....Hard to explore a massive open world if you only have access to small parts of it at a time.


More than likely, they are going to go the "Tales of..." game route, and give us semi-sandbox. MAAAAAYBE if we're lucky, we'll get a world map in-between major locations/areas.

Being cryptic and not saying anything certain, as well as not using "keywords" that if mentioned start fires on message boards? That's standard opperating proceedure for any company of this nature. Even more so if they know its going to piss one person off (not always the masses, just one person might take offense, don't do it.) This leaves the possibility of sales to uninformed people that might buy it, even if they find out 10 minutes in they hate it. Regardless of the why, its SOP. Just how it is for the folks making statements.

And Tenkarider, stop freaking compairing chit to Dragon's Dogma. Period. It was a chit game. Features good or bad, it was a horrible boring game and should be forgotten. As well as never used as a basis for describing ANY feature or effect it may or may not have had. It sucked in everyway. Even the cool features sucked. Quit bringing up such horrible things.

Also, an open world, or even so far as a full on sand box, you have a choice. You CAN go spend hoirs digging under rocks and peeling bark from trees looking for hidden storage places, or you CAN say fug it and keep walking. Why do you cuss when something requires more than 10 minutes of searching (that may or may not result in any sort of direct gain) when things such as that are not a requirement to complete the game? They are there to reward people that spend the time, not because they have to but because they want to. If you don't like digging for gold, just to find a lump of coal, then don't dig, your absolutely free to keep walking. FF7 Knights of the Round required work to get, some searching, getting the bird to ride, etc. BUT it was in no way a requirement for playing the game. Its an option that you can choose to do. Period. Do it or don't, just stop acting like those little hidden things are a game ruining requirement just because you hate spending a few hours looking for them.

Fallout 4: open world, some days I play for 4 hours a night and accomplish absolutely nothing, not one single quest. Why? Because I was playing a game, not trying to grind one out. Ya gotta stop treating this stuff like work. Even though I might go a day or two playing FO4 doing nothing I still don't find every little secret. Hell I have found "treasure chest" on the bottom of ponds/lakes in the game that had good stuff in them, that doesn't mean I do skinny dipping in every mud puddle I see in the chance there is something there, nor do I expect something to be there. Its a game, I expect it to waste my time... kinda the point of playing to start with.

Bleh, I'll quit with the rant, to each his own. I still feel this says it all:The World is Saved

Maybe more developers need to watch that...

In the big scheme of things though, I'm more worried about the dialogue localization and the voice acting. The Japanese flow of speech does NOT have the same cadence and structure of English. Nor does English sound the same when translated to Spanish. or French. Each language has it's own flow of speech, and the translations always sound a bit...off. (Looking at YOU FF10). For example Look at FF12 (a game with a great voice cast, and a decent translation imo) and compare it to, say Dragon Age: Origins. (Also a fantastic Voice Cast ((some of the same people even)) ) Does one game have a better written script than the other? a better story? Debatable. That's up to opinion. BUT, to an English speaking audience, DAO SOUNDS better. ...because the script was written by, for, and in English.

A simple translation job with minor localization differences may (kind of) work for the text-based games of the past, but voice acted, spoken dialogue? Not so much. Now, I don't expect game companies to hire an outside group of native speakers to do an entire language rewrite for every game they translate... But I DO hope they hire a good localization director and cast that can make things flow.

....but honestly, if they are going with the Advent Children cast? *sigh* I don't really have high hopes at all. My fingers are crossed that it will be dual-audio or have the option to turn the voices off...I can't sit through another ff10.

(12-22-2015, 07:25 AM)catone Wrote: [ -> ]You CAN go spend hoirs digging under rocks and peeling bark from trees looking for hidden storage places, or you CAN say fug it and keep walking.

I would like they implement a crafting / upgrade system similar to CC Materia Fusion. Maybe for weapon and items too. I cannot imagine the power of a lvl 50 tissue item.

(12-22-2015, 10:52 AM)Rjenyawd Wrote: [ -> ]Now, I don't expect game companies to hire an outside group of native speakers to do an entire language rewrite for every game they translate...

" In recent years, [Square-Enix] localization teams have tended to adopt two different approaches to translation and localization: either they remain quite faithful to the original Japanese, or they can make large changes as long as the story outline remains the same. The former method was adopted for Final Fantasy XIII and its sequels, although some alterations were made in order to make the English dialogue sound natural."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Localizati...ideo_games

I think FFXIII dialogue were good from a technical point of view, though I can't compare really since I don't speak Japanese. Don't tell me FFXIII is linear, a bad game or w/e, that's not the point. Also now I think SE is doing the localization to English as the game development progress, which is a better approach than asking fluent American Japanese speaker or team to do the work after the game is 100% finished in Japanese. They usually get the localization done fairly soon after the Japanese release.

Finally, Dragon's Dogma had crappy voice acting so my hopes are not high for the FF7 remake.