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(07-15-2014, 02:45 PM)Madsiur Wrote: I don't really believe that human is either bad (selfish) or good by nature. I think we become the product of what society makes of you and how we are raised by our family. If there is a human nature, it is to create and invent, from small scale in every day actions to more significant scale like making a discovery. However, there are oppressive and authoritarian structures like the state and the private industry that limit that faculty of creation of many humans. Thus we don't live in a system that could permit the human nature to express itself to the maximum.

This is one of the main reason I think oppressive structures should be abolished.

Where and how you grow up will affect you, of course, but our "intelligence" comes with a lot of "side effects". You will never see an animal killing if it isn't because he needs it to survive, or destroying the environment because he wants more power over his brother. Selfishness, greed, corruption,... those are words that you can only apply to human beings, and the bigger the society where the humans live, the bigger the chance of appearing those feelings, because people always want to be something more, not to be just 1 human more.

For a moment, let's think that the "oppressive and authoritarian structures" dissappear.... how long, do you think, it would take to be the same shit again? 5 years? 10?

Of course, not everyone is like that, but the 90%... xD

I could be hours speaking about this, I love this type of "discussions" Tongue


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#12
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(07-15-2014, 04:05 PM)Xenovant Wrote: Selfishness, greed, corruption,... those are words that you can only apply to human beings, and the bigger the society where the humans live, the bigger the chance of appearing those feelings, because people always want to be something more, not to be just 1 human more.

I think these are the symptoms of how a society works. Right now, competition is encouraged and our economic system favorite exploitation. Now wonder a darker side of the human being is shown...

Also, if society would not scale the different jobs, e.g. one job is better than another, each could find its place in society without wanting to become "something more". A doctor is important, because he can cure disease, but the garbage guy is also important because he prevent diseases by removing the garbage from the streets. However, one will always be perceived as more important for society.

If people were to work for the society and not for a salary, I think things would stabilize themselves and a better side of the human would be shown.

These things are difficult to imagine, because we have been taught that the state, capitalism and money are mandatory for a society to work. If you look at the remaining aboriginal societies, they live peacefully in peace with nature and in decentralized societies. There will always be natural leaders that could guide people, but having a form of supreme authority is not mandatory I think.
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It isn't only our society... look back to any ancient civilization, there were always people who wanted to have more, everywhere.

About the tribes... I completely agree (I was thinking in them when I said "the bigger the society where the humans live, the bigger the chance of appearing those feelings"). Why would you like to be over a few other guys? everyone has an important role in the tribe for the survival of the entire tribe.

Speaking about Tenkarider said about the barter system and money... I think money, really contributed to the dark side of the human beings because it's easily manipulable and it contributed to creating the social classes, there can be people that don't need to do anything but can have everything, and that leads to thinking that they are superior (the "monkeys" work while I do nothing). With the barter it was completely different, everyone had to do something if he wanted to survive in the society and everyone was the same.

Well... that's basically the comunism, but of course, the true comunism it's just an utopia. Maybe with an apocalypse that kills the 95% of the humanity... haha, because that will never happen in big cultures.


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(07-16-2014, 06:23 PM)Madsiur Wrote: Also, if society would not scale the different jobs, e.g. one job is better than another, each could find its place in society without wanting to become "something more". A doctor is important, because he can cure disease, but the garbage guy is also important because he prevent diseases by removing the garbage from the streets. However, one will always be perceived as more important for society.

People will always measure themselves by something external. If not salary than desirability, enjoyment, power, sex. If you restrict and disperse resources in an attempt to manufacture contentment, then you have to regulate everything else as well. And even if you could hypothetically do that people want their lives to be meaningful and have value, and standardizing everything across the board removes that possibility. What incentive is there to excel?

I think you hit the nail on the head when you said :
(07-16-2014, 06:23 PM)Madsiur Wrote: If people were to work for the society and not for a salary, I think things would stabilize themselves and a better side of the human would be shown.

The problem is that the side of humanity that wants to better himself is the same side that wants to better his community. They are pretty much one and the same. You can't rid yourself of one without ridding yourself of the other. That pride for your nation can't survive without personal pride as well.

(07-16-2014, 06:23 PM)Madsiur Wrote: These things are difficult to imagine, because we have been taught that the state, capitalism and money are mandatory for a society to work. If you look at the remaining aboriginal societies, they live peacefully in peace with nature and in decentralized societies. There will always be natural leaders that could guide people, but having a form of supreme authority is not mandatory I think.

If you know anyone from aboriginal societies, or have visited them yourself, you would know they wouldn't describe it that way, in the least. Human nature has been around a LOT longer than centralized government.

I will say again, in an ideal world with ideal people, this could be done. But people aren't ideal, and changing the government structure isn't going to produce ideal people to follow it.
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A glimpse of hope?
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/oc...age-utopia


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(07-16-2014, 07:10 PM)Xenovant Wrote: It isn't only our society... look back to any ancient civilization, there were always people who wanted to have more, everywhere.

Thousands of years of oppression have made this: a society where any action create winners and losers. A society that produce pain, poverty and exploitation. It doesn't mean it can't be changed, because I don't think it's in our nature to produce such social structures. At one point you got to think that democracy will be replaced by a better system, who would have believed in democracy in the 15th century after all?

(07-16-2014, 07:14 PM)Edrin Wrote: The problem is that the side of humanity that wants to better himself is the same side that wants to better his community. They are pretty much one and the same. You can't rid yourself of one without ridding yourself of the other. That pride for your nation can't survive without personal pride as well.

I'm thinking there should be ways to fulfill your needs and at the same time help the society. However, this is not encouraged in the society we live in.

(07-16-2014, 07:14 PM)Edrin Wrote: I will say again, in an ideal world with ideal people, this could be done. But people aren't ideal, and changing the government structure isn't going to produce ideal people to follow it.

I'm not talking about changing the government structure, I'm talking about getting rid of it. Think about the people deciding for themselves in "unions of unions of unions" (etc...). But after all the essence of anarchism in general is voluntary conduct. You couldn't for someone to live in such a society unless he wants to and be ready to behave in a certain way. This is why I talked about the importance of education. There is no detailed model of how such a society would look like because all individual choice of the people living in the society must be respected. However we can imagine people not wanting to be part of it could go be gatherers/hunters in the woods in a far away land lol.

(07-16-2014, 09:51 PM)Tenkarider Wrote: A glimpse of hope?
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/oc...age-utopia

History has proven it can work: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_Revolution ;)
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(07-16-2014, 09:51 PM)Tenkarider Wrote: A glimpse of hope?
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/oc...age-utopia

I know everything about this, it's even less than smoke. That "utopia" has been almost destroyed already by the spanish government and Sanchez Gordillo (the guy behind this) and a few other people will be lucky if they don't end in jail for the rest of their life, they already have a lot of judicial charges over their heads.


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Lol, after 1320 posts of Madsiur we finally see one emoticon in one post Laugh
This stuff really concerns you, huh?


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I know everything about it because YO SOY DE ESPAÑA (I'm from Spain) Tongue Laugh

BTW, the spanish revolution ended with zero rights, thousands and thousands of deaths and a dictatorship. You need to read the full story: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_Civil_War . The civil war happened at the same time as the revolution.


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