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FF6 ROTDS 1.3.1 review

#21
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well im out before i blow up, lockirby knew what i meant that's good enough for me. try not to be so condescending to people it really isn't becoming


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#22
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Quote: i think the true balance would be between the difficulty of players like yourself and players like me and madsiur.
If you think you might be above the average and so the balance should be between you and us, well... that's what i'm aiming at.


Quote:but making shit impossible only caters to one type of player and makes the audience for such a thing smaller.
Why you keep assuming i want 1.0 Zuriel, even if i keep saying through the whole thread that i'd nerf it too?(even if the nerf would be less harsh than 1.3 version's one) check my previous post to figure that out...
If the point would be:"okay, you can choose only 1 among 2 options... v1.0 or v1.3" then i'd vote 1.0, but if i'd be able to create a third solution i'd say that v1.0 requires a nerf less harsh than 1.3.


Quote:Yes, Quicksilvers may be a trump card, but no boss fight should be made to be difficult with the expectation that the player can use Quicksilvers to offset the difficulty, because it's entirely possible that the player has no Quicksilvers left for the fight.
i don't want to create that scenario(because i already know that someone might already ran out of Quicksilvers) but i feel like it should be something like... you(LK2) are fighting a boss, you're in a bad situation like 2 allies dead and something else and there you think: "oh, i have some Quicksilver in the inventory, if use one right now i should be able to end the fight in one single action(or recover the party quickly) but hell no, that's against my ethics!" and so you just keep fight without it;
another random guy in the same situation: "oh, i have some Quicksilver in the inventory, if i don't use it i might risk to not act in time to save the party, i don't want to risk of losing after having made so far!" and so he uses it(maybe it wasn't even necessary)
Quicksilver might be good also to counter a sudden bad situation due to bad luck or something, i believe it's something similar to one situation that Madsiur described some post ago.


Quote:Easy games can be enjoyable as well, you know
that brings me back to some similar post i replied in the first months after registering... it's not like i love to give the same answer multiple times, anyway at least 40% of games i played fall under easy group, and i enjoyed them... but my reaction is heavily affected from my expectations on that game: if it's unknown, no expectations; if i already know the game is considered hard, then i expect an hard game, if it's considered easy then i expect an easy game.
With ROTDS i heard everywhere that it was difficult and so i expected that... and it was difficult indeed as i progressed in the game; but when i fought Zuriel, despite i was aware he was nerfed i never expected it was to that point.
And he was the infamous deadly Zuriel back to that period, so i thought that he still had to be somewhat strong, despite the nerf.

It's more or less when you buy a product expecting something, because you heard that it also had a certain item included in the pack and when you unbox it you don't find that item inside... it's not vendor's fault but my expectation has not been met. that's why i didn't want people to spoil the game in the shoutbox, what are threads made for?? after i got that spoiler it was too late and so it didn't make anymore difference to dodge threads, despite i kept dodge them.


Quote:The score that you gave the hack wasn't something that made it feel like you were only judging the hack on its difficulty. It was the amount of time the review spent focusing on it. It doesn't matter why the focus is spent on it; if 3/4 of the stuff you write is about the difficulty, it gives the impression that was most of what you rated the hack on, regardless of the scores. Even if that impression is false, you can't expect people to see it that way.
Perhaps i should put an underscore horizontal line to separate review from what's more like a separated comment after the final vote...


Quote:well im out before i blow up, lockirby knew what i meant that's good enough for me. try not to be so condescending to people it really isn't becoming
believe it or not but i always understand what the other is trying to say, that doesn't mean i can't expose my opinions or explain why i have those opinions... i don't want to be condescending but a long discussion can't end in few posts and when i keep answer that's what you think i'm doing.


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#23
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I know that you don't want 1.0, Tenka. But the level of difficulty you want is still too high for people to find fun. That's where the issue lies. At most, it should be edged up a little from 1.3, and perhaps some of the parts of the game that still seem around 1.0 difficulty should be edged down to make things more even.

I'm not sure what point you're trying to make with the Quicksilvers here. That's how they're supposed to work, and also how they do work. But any individual fight still needs to be balanced as if Quicksilvers don't exist, which means Quicksilvers have no bearing on this discussion.

Why do you have an expectation that the hack *should* be difficult? The original vision, as defined by Nattak was "Harder than original, but most people shouldn't quit". You're right about that statement being vague. But that just makes it more silly if the hack falls outside the vision statement, which your idea of the hack would! The hack doesn't bill itself as intending to be difficult, the devs don't bill the hack as intending to be difficult (although it was played up more than usual on ID, albeit unnecessarily IMO, to show the hack would "fit" on the site), and the advertisements for the hack, such as the trailer, also don't bill the hack as intending to be difficult. The ones you're getting the expectation that the hack should be difficult from are generally random forum-goers, half of whom are complaining about that very difficulty, none of whom define what the hack should be anyways, and most of which are stating what the hack is, not what it should be. By your logic, if anything, the parts of the game you still like should probably be toned down a bit more to fit what the hack is really advertising, and has (for the most part), always advertised.

And to answer that other bit in James' stead, he's not calling you condescending for expressing your opinions, or making a lot of posts expressing your opinions. It's all about how you express your opinions that makes them sound condescending. Statements like "what are you talking about?" sound a little douchey in English in cases like these.


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#24
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Quote:Statements like "what are you talking about?" sound a little douchey in English in cases like these.
Really? It sounds enough normal to me... Huh


Well... to make a long story short: (stop me if i'm missing something)
- ROTDS is intended to be more or less like in 1.3;
- rumors have been spreaded too much;
- 1.0 Zuriel should never had born, not as main plot final boss, at least;
- Testing phase was kinda lame and there was a big lack of internal communication.

I don't know which are the parts that you still consider 1.0-like, anyway looks like most of the monsters in 1.3 are ok now(except few exceptions)
I stated that Zuriel is more or less at the same level of the statues, anyway Gi Nattak gave him a boost, we'll see what happens.

________________

Time to add something to this discussion: i had an idea about a tweak to the next versions, despite it increase slightly the difficulty:

- What about killing 128% evade/Mevade tank builds? in 1.3 they are very convenient(probably even before 1.3) and even more they basically lock the build a character can have, despite it's worth the sacrifice and for that reason it's hardly an option...
To do that i'd regulate evade parameters of equips so that, combined to characters's evade, they'll cap to a value around 110-120%... maybe except with Paladin Shield that will allow a character to reach 128% for melee evasion(considered who you have to beat for that, i think it's more than legit as a prize) and the same thing with another equip for Mevade?

I'd do that to promote actual tanks, based on defense parameter, not evade... the odds of dodge will still be pretty high, but the time you get hit, since you don't have a good defense in exchange, it will break the evade tank formation;

There are 4 equips in particular that should be edited for that reason:
- Arngrist(that knife with 30 evade), it's better than any weapon due to the evade boost and so let the others be unused...(even worse the fact you have early access to it in WoR and by shop) that's also why i never discovered that Sakura and Akuma could be thrown against float enemies... -> just 20 evade instead of 30;

- Magic Rod, for very similar reasons to the knife and even because it's difficult to find something to nerf for a mage in order to prevent 128% magic evade, lowering mevade boost to 20% should be ok;

- Mist Cloak: no matter the way i try to analyze it: 40% evade is broken(it even absorbs wind) if i'm not wrong all the other armors won't provide more that 10% evade boost(the same for Spectral Suit that came back in 1.4 version) so i wonder why not to limit the evade boost to 20% ?

- Solar Guard(was that the name?) : 30 mevade... all the others: 10 mevade, why not 20 mevade instead?


Those 4 items should be the ones that once nerfed will avoid 128% evade(for characters like Golbez and Oboro it might be necessary some other restriction)


What do you think about it? could it be a good idea to nerf evade/mevade tanks?


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#25
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Drakkazul was my big thought for a "still 1.0 like" boss, unless he's been nerfed without me noticing.

I think it could be a good move overall, but it will take some balancing. I'm not sure how much Nattak wants to change at this point, so he'll have to weigh in.

It's hard to understand all the implications that statements will have sometimes, even if English is your first language. Let's be honest here, English is pretty stupid. Laugh


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#26
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Drakkazul? Kinda a surprise... aside equip some guy with istant death protections i don't remember any other particular complication.


BREAKING NEWS: i was testing Zuriel of 1.4.2 version... it sounds better, i was sceptic about a mere boost of 3 points to magic but it increases the damage of Hyperdrive of 1000 and similar boosts to the other spells, even if i think what makes the real difference is the significant boost you made to his speed(even if i can't tell if the presence of Reaper slowed down the party or not)


But the real breaking new is that then i did Love Token(now it belongs to Screamer's rage, didn't took a lot to figure out that it was just a sprite swap, that spell doesn't match a lot with that water-green creature now...) with Reaper to see how much it impacts on Zuriel and well... that was beyond my expectations: if Zuriel protects Reaper from a melee attack and dies in this way, then the HP bars script won't trigger and the battle will end with a lame normal monster's death...

100% sure that it happens with all HP scripts in general, if it was an ally attack it should had to counter with HP loop, but to be more precise this exploit happens when the target of Love Token attacks and protects Reaper from his attack: i already know that Monsters won't counter their attack.
The annoying fact is that i'm pretty sure i tested suicide with Ultimate Czar Dragon and my script was still able to keep him alive...
Still i can't say i ever tested suicide protecting another one from his attack, maybe that function has the priority on AI or god only knows what else...

Quite funny that it was necessary to do only 65535 damage to win the fight Laugh
Said that i'm pretty sure you wanna fix that ASAP... what about just replace Love Token with another rage and erase it forever from character's moves?
I say that because i'm not able to grant you there's a solution to that problem, the best thing you can do is remove it from Reaper's rages.



PS. i was sure i made a deadly counter even to Love Token in Ultimate Czar Dragon script but looks like i did it only for Charm Finger which means there's a potential exploit against him(didn't verified it)... well it still doesn't change that victory is archieved only when he dies from his own script, in the final scene.


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#27
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Said that i'm pretty sure you wanna fix that ASAP... what about just replace Love Token with another rage and erase it forever from character's moves?

Good call, that is my kind of fix right there!

Thanks for the report on this, I wasn't aware of this one. So it negates the extra 'lives' in the monster script eh? I did read the post here but just double checking that's all it does. That's why it was never a true bug in the original than.

There is another small update coming soon so I'll add this to the list of fixes, thanks again. Oh and glad Zuriel seems a little beefier now, that's good. I did test him as well between versions on a non-god mode game I finally managed, and he seemed tougher - you're right about the speed, I think that's what really hurt him since it was brought down. In 1.0 as you must know he was at 190 speed (crazy insane fast) then his super nerf brought him down to like...74?!? So now at 110-120 or whatever it is now seems pretty fair, while still tough.


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#28
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You fought Drakkazul after getting Serin back though. For that fight in particular the difference between two and three characters is huge. Since the average player is likely going to encounter him unprepared with only two characters, and have a dungeon to go through again if they die, it makes sense to make him a little easier IMO.

EDIT: I also want to mention that I don't think there is a Rage that uses Love Token in vanilla, so I don't think you need to worry about your Czar.


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#29
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Quote:Thanks for the report on this, I wasn't aware of this one. So it negates the extra 'lives' in the monster script eh? I did read the post here but just double checking that's all it does. That's why it was never a true bug in the original than.

There is another small update coming soon so I'll add this to the list of fixes, thanks again. Oh and glad Zuriel seems a little beefier now, that's good. I did test him as well between versions on a non-god mode game I finally managed, and he seemed tougher - you're right about the speed, I think that's what really hurt him since it was brought down. In 1.0 as you must know he was at 190 speed (crazy insane fast) then his super nerf brought him down to like...74?!? So now at 110-120 or whatever it is now seems pretty fair, while still tough.

Yeah, i'm pretty sure it ignores extra lives.
190? actually i opened 1.1, 1.3.1 and 1.4.2 roms to see the difference between the three Zuriels and in 1.1 speed was 150... don't tell me that there's a difference between 1.0 and 1.1?!? Surprised


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#30
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Personally I like this idea, and hope in future options to balance out the difficulty and make it more of a hard hack in future iterations.
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